What if I told you, ladies listening to this, or any man that's listening that has a woman in their life as a mother, daughter, sister, partner, boss, or subordinate? What if I told you that you're leaving $500,000 on the table over the course of your career? $500,000. Let that land for a second. That might seem like a crazy number. You might be under that number, you might be over that number. But I want to create some self-awareness around the subject today. Today I'm interviewing a new colleague of mine who's in my group coaching program named Kathy Gostosky. And she works with women on helping them identify their value and your worth. We're going to have a really intense, robust conversation around teaching you how to negotiate. We're going to talk about how to negotiate an offer litter when it's in front of you and those emotions are running high and your central nervous system is firing on all cylinders. We're going to talk about, we're going to teach you how to ask for a raise if you're working in an organization that maybe doesn't have a set time of how often they offer races every single year. And we're going to teach you the one tool that you've got to have in your toolbox throughout this entire process of your career that's going to be a game changer for you, no matter where you're at in your career. You are not going to want to miss this episode. And I guarantee you that you're going to want to share it with somebody that you know that is struggling with this right now, that may know it or may not know it. We've also got a really cool resource for you at the end of the episode, so make sure you stick around to the end. Welcome to the Restaurant Leadership Podcast, where we coach independent multi-unit restaurant operators to build systems that drive profitability and reclaim time so they can scale with confidence and spend their time and energy where they want to, not where they have to. I'm your host, Kristen Marvin, restaurant coach and author of Multi-unit Mastery. If you are an independent restaurant owner managing multiple locations, you know the chaos that comes with growth. Inconsistent execution across your restaurants, managers who won't take ownership, constantly answering questions your team should already know the answers to. You're stuck in your current role when you want to be playing a bigger strategic role as you scale. You don't have the right leaders in place or you keep losing them. And you're not sure how to find great people and actually keep them around. We work with passionate independent restaurant owners who found success with their first few locations and are ready to scale strategically. Our clients aren't looking to just survive expansion. They want to thrive through it. They're committed to developing strong leaders and creating exceptional guest experiences. Through the independent restaurant framework that we teach in Multi-unit Mastery, we coach independent restaurant groups to move from chaos to confidence by focusing on three pillars people, process, and profit. You can grab a gifted copy of the book at irfbook.com. On this show, we bring you real coaching conversations, leadership strategies, and the frameworks that you need to lead like a CEO instead of operating like a worn-out manager. And here's the thing: coaching has changed our clients' businesses and can change yours too. If you've never experienced what it's like to have someone in your corner who actually gets the restaurant world, we'd love to connect. We offer one-on-one and group coaching. Head to kristenmarvin.com slash contact for a complimentary coaching session, and let's talk about what's possible for your restaurant group. Kenzie, we are going to dive right into this topic. I got to give the listeners a little bit of background here. Um you and I are in a phenomenal coaching, a group coaching program together, and we've seen each other on the screen every other week for some time. And and Rich, our coach, had there was there was something, I you know, I've got to be discreet here and hold some confidentiality, of course, but there was something going on in the room that day that really pointed so directly to the work that you do. And Rich kind of called a time out and moved over to you and said, Kathy, come on, talk talk about what this is. And and when you spoke for 30 seconds or a minute, your message landed so deeply with me that it I I like literally took a took a seat back. I had I had to lean back in my chair for a second. It was like somebody knocked the wind out of me. I didn't see uh yeah, and you put some numbers to this, and I thought immediately, I think I it was probably a little rude of me during the middle of the group coaching, but I immediately messaged you and was like, we gotta connect, we gotta talk about this, we've got to bring this message to the show.

Yeah, no, I appreciate you being so proactive and being so self-aware because, and to maintain the confidentiality, the person that was in the hot seat, very, very successful global coach woman suffering from the apology text, which we'll get into. And Rich saw it, and so he called me out as the expert in that area. And so you noticed it, she denied it because afterwards I just reached out just to offer support. Yeah. If you want to talk about this, I can give you more details because it's hard, like taking it all in on the hot seat. And she just um she wasn't she wasn't open to it, and that's okay too. It's just that I guess the the lesson here is whatever you're open to in the moment, don't ignore that because there's something there for you, right?

100%. And I think this is such a cool topic that we have never even brought on the show before, and it's a brand new concept for me, and I can't wait to get into it. But I think for anyone that's listening to this episode right now, male or female, you may not be ready to hear this right now. You may not understand how it's showing up for you today. This may not land with you for six months or 10 years. Um, but there's a tremendous amount of value in this conversation. So I'm I'm geeking out today because I get to learn from you. And I'm excited to, you know, we we talked for 30 minutes last week and just um I I love how much we have in common here. I love how much of a high performer you are from the coaching side, from the legal side. So I'm excited to get into this, but let's let's talk about the apology tax. What is it? Where'd it come from? And what was the moment that it clicked for you?

Wow. Um, yeah, let's just jump right in. So the apology tax says that as women professionals, generally in leadership roles, okay? Because when we're junior, we really don't we don't cede to this quite the same way because there's the stakes aren't as high. Okay. So I'm not ignoring junior women because just yesterday somebody said maybe you should focus on junior women. And I said, I got it, but I gotta stop the leak from where it's starting upstream, right? So, and and because there's no mentorship at that level either, anyway. So we leave behind five hundred thousand dollars over a 10-year span of our career, right? We leave it on the table and walk away from it because of our lack of ability to negotiate our value. So it's about all the times where whatever industry you're in, I just so happen to be a lawyer, a former lawyer. Um, so we can we can let's stick to hospitality, whatever your leadership position is. If you have to convert people in this perspective clients into clients, you are not able to convert enroll, as we call it, you and me, right? With our with our coaching. Uh we're not doing it because of the nuances, the subtleties, the communication distinctions, uh, all sorts of things. We're trying to preserve relationships rather than uh make a business case for why we're the ones you should hire, our company's the one you should hire. So we leave that money on the table and that hurts the company, and that hurts you because the other end of the apology tag says perhaps you're not able to use your voice uh to go get a raise. 100% start those conversations. These are all nuances that we focus on. But whatever it is you're leaving behind this money, and it's hurting your company, it's hurting you, and it's not setting a legacy, a mentorship, a framework for those coming up under you, right? It happens all the time. And so to your other question about how we got here, I paid the apology tax for years as a lawyer. Uh when I I mean I had a stellar legal career that I am so grateful for as an immigrant in this beautiful country of ours with all the opportunities I got. Uh, I was a federal lobbyist on the hill of my investment management background, has always been the practice of law I've had. I went to the Securities and Exchange Commission. Like every lawyer who is in the investment management area wants to be at the SEC. I tell you this because when I left the SEC to go to the law firm, I never negotiated my salary. And it was about a year later, uh a friend of mine who had worked at the SEC with me and then told me to come interview at the firm because he left the SEC to go to the firm before me. He said to me very casually, very kindly, he said, you know, I always wondered why you never negotiated your salary. One, I was surprised he knew, and then I realized, well, there must be some communication network that uh exists. I'm gonna draw the gender line and say between men. Uh and I was like shocked. And he said, Why didn't you? And he said it from such a place of caring and concern. And it really shocked me, Christine. I said, Why didn't I? Why did I assume that whatever they offered me was the right amount for me? I'm an SEC lawyer. They're dying for SEC lawyers, so that's how it all came about.

Okay, this is awesome. Um, I want to know what your age was around that time.

So, right around then, I was probably, yeah, good question. Um, 28.

Okay, okay, and and I'm gonna I'm gonna do this right now because I'm holding, I'm gonna hold my value, and you're you're you prompted me to do this. I love this. So my name is pronounced Kristen. So before of course, before we continue, I just want to throw that out there. Uh you were you you had it the other day. No, no, no, you're fine, you're fine. There, and I this is funny because it all ties in. There have been moments in my career, and I've written about this, and I've left jobs because of this, where my people didn't know how to pronounce my name after working with a company for five years. So, anyway, this is a good example of folding your value. I love it.

So got you, Kristen. I hear you. And people here's generally what happens, right? Because they're like Katie. I'm like, oh, version 1.0 is Katie, it's actually Katie, Katie Carrie, blah, blah, blah. And some some man said to me once, he goes, Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you have to jump through all these hoops to make us feel okay, better for and apologize to us for calling you the wrong name. So you know, oh, I do that even with non-money relief. Right, 100%.

It shows up everywhere in your life. We're gonna talk about that more in a little bit, but I just love that that just came up. So thank you for that opportunity. Um, let's talk about the number though, because for people that are listening, and even at first, I was like, okay, 500,000. I'm immediately thinking back in all the moments of my career where I did not negotiate. I'm like, that's I know that that it wasn't that much money on paper at the time, but there's an ecosystem here, right? Where that gets wider and wider. So talk a little bit about where that number came from and how it really adds up over your career.

Yeah, so that number is an estimate. I do a lot of research on these things. That number is an estimate, so you could be below it or you could be above it. However, that is a safe estimate. And if that number rubs you wrong and you're like, bullshit, pardon my language, I was trying to loud curse here, but that's the only word I go with. Um think twice. If it's irritating you, then it's spot on meant, right? Yeah, roughly that number, and it's not on the high end, it's not on the low end, it's right smack in the middle because I'm realistic and I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad. I'm here to make you uncomfortable so you grow and you realize hey, I can have an easier career, I can have an easier life, I can make my company more money, I can own my own value instead of leaking my power. So 500,000 comes from the dollar amount you leave by not negotiating your value, negotiation skills, top things we work on, but also this cumulative effect it has right over 10 years. I always talk to people about I'm not a career coach per se, but it's like, what's your base salary? What should it be? Why should you be focused on your base? Because you take your base salary wherever you go. Right. If we're talking about enrolling prospective clients for your company and your organization and the hospitality business, then that adds up too, because you don't get one deal, then you don't feel like you're able to go out and get bigger clients. And so then the compounding effect is at play there too. So easy over a tenure career. And that's why I look at women in leadership, right? And by the way, this applies to men too. I am not trying to say it doesn't, I'm just choosing to focus on women because I'm looking for unity in the world right now. And when women step up, something powerful happens and we get unity in this process. So if you're a man listening to this, please don't think that you don't have something to gain from this conversation monetarily.

Yeah.

Did that answer your question?

Absolutely. And it's not for any men that are listening to this episode. Yes, this could apply to you. This could apply to a partner that you are with right now, to your sister, to your mother, um, to your daughter. I mean, there's this is just it's showing up, I think, a lot more places. And I'm just excited to have this conversation to bring some awareness to it today. I think for me, um, when I think about you know, my career and what and what happens typically in hospitality is we make a lot of money when we're coming up through the ranks of servers and bartenders. And then when we move into management, we're immediately expected to take a pay cut. And that is really, really, really showing up today with the way that the labor um models are structured. And when I started in my early 20s, I was a cocktail server making 50 grand a year, uh, which was amazing money back then for where I was living and the cost of living. And then I took a management job and I cut that down to $28,000 a year. And I was just, and I was working 80 hours a week, nights, weekends, holidays, and I was working for a huge five-star, five diamond hotel. Now I was grateful for that salary because it was it meant upward mobility to me and I could afford to live on that. But that $28,000 was my starting salary for what I've based every other move. So I went on from there to be offered a job managing two restaurants at not even double that salary. Um, so it's I think about, you know, I think for people listening to this, it's like, what where have you set your floor? And and what does that growth look like for you over time? Because I can now think back to every single job offer I've had and go, I should have at least been making 10 or 20 grand more.

Yeah. And so here's my question. And look, I'm an entrepreneur, right? I all those years I practiced law, I was the black sheep because I would always question stuff like that. I'm like, well, who says it has to be that way? I'm not trying to be rebellious or create anarchy here. I'm just saying the rules don't always make sense. And as a lawyer, I say that, right? And we have to question anything like that because we lead the way, especially in management roles, right? So it's always good whoever's listening to this. Just because somebody said it's 28,000, Kristen. I mean, those are thoughts we didn't have then. And I didn't either, for the same reason I suspect you didn't, because we were just so like, yay, I get to work at a law firm, right? And I am underpaid. I I have a feeling if they told me in the first 20 days I was underpaid, I would have still been like, yay, I get to work at the law. However, we have to stop and think, uh rules don't apply always, right? And that doesn't mean we have to be all to the walls, crazy bitch, whatever, but we do have to stop and think, how could this be expanded and looked at differently so that we build a legacy in an industry that serves the highest good that may not be getting that right now because everyone's kind of the word complacent comes up, but it's more like everyone has just got their head down and they're not focused on building the business and building the industry. What if when people got paid more, the business made more and your five-star resort was like you know, blowing them the revenue model off the charts that year? Has that ever been looked at in your industry? Probably not, because people are just saying, I'll take 28,000.

Yeah. Well, and it and I I wanted, I'm so curious to know from you and um and take a deep dive on why you feel like women don't negotiate. Because I think for me, we were talking about this the other day, I started to really think back about like, Kristen, this isn't just show, this just hasn't shown up for you in your professional career of the last 20 plus years in restaurants. It's it's showing up in my coaching fees. And uh, and I'm constantly having to try to figure out what is my value. It's showing up in my personal life and dating of like, what is my value and my worth? And how do I hold that when I'm around other people? But I was never taught or or given permission, I guess, or gave myself permission to negotiate when I was being presented with a job. I just had gratitude that I was actually being chosen. And again, that speaks so much to the value and the worth, but I was also intimidated as hell of the people that were presenting the offer to me. And so I there's just so much wrapped up in there that I'm excited to do some work on myself. Um why don't why don't you think women negotiate?

Um, you said it. We lead with gratitude instead of data. So there's so look, the feminine divine is what I'll call it. But the fem, everyone has masculine and feminine energy inside of us. It's just it's just part and parcel with being a human, right? So the point is to have your masculine and feminine energy harmonized, balanced, okay, so that you come across whole, right? And like grounded and confident. As women, we're very good at being grateful, and you said it, and I just said it too. Like, I'm grateful to be at the law firm. However, when we say it like that and own it like that, we have to be careful with what comes next. We lead with gratitude instead of data. Well, data shows up in the profit model, right? Why should you be paid more? Because you're grateful. No, because you get results, right? We overexplain instead of making proposals, right? Uh, that is a feminine quality. And the benefits of that are great. We don't need to get into the benefits of that, right? Now I'm just showing you why that doesn't always work when we're trying to negotiate known arm value. We soften and ask to preserve a relationship instead of actually stating the terms. And the terms are back to the data. And you may think this is true of only in certain industries. As a lawyer, we are king and queen of data and terms, like deal sheets, whatever, there's terms, there's data. However, when we flip into presenting our own value, we go back into the mode of how we were raised and we were told, you know, um, good girls are seen, not heard. Uh, the formal education system adds something to that, formal religion may add something to that. I am not here to judge any of those things whatsoever because it's very much a personal thing. All I'm saying is look at that for yourself. So um, why what do you consider being collaborative? Is it actually having a strategic position or is it you just uh, you know, folding constantly? And this isn't for you to go the other direction, but we find women, especially when we're in a man's industry, we gotta lean into that, right? And most industries I find are male dominated, and that's our that's the way it is, right? I'm not here to you know push so hard against that that we take all our Energy and we exert it that way. But when you lean into that, you gotta be careful that well, let me say it this way: the problem with being a powerful woman in a masculine setting is we tend to overcompensate and go too far into the masculine. So if you're hearing this and saying, Yeah, I don't do that stuff, uh, then you're probably too far. And that's what I did. I was so far into the masculine legal world that when I left it, I slid fully into the other side. And you should be saying, But Ket, you were just saying you were paying the apology tax in the legal world. Exactly. Let that land. How could it be that I was overcompensating and being too far in the masculine and yet I was still paying the apology tax because we we nuance, we slip, right? And we look at we look at business case frameworks as favors instead of value exchanges. And we don't use the right language, and we're looking to preserve relationship, and all of that, to your point, Kristen, goes back to um what we call baggage and what we were raised with and what our biggest fears are that we're still carrying uh as adults. And I see this all the time with my clients that come and sit in my office, and we do what's called a breakthrough session. And these are people that are running a billion-dollar organization, CEOs, and they're they've got baggage around something that happened in their childhood. And so um, this is how it shows up instead of a business case. We lead with all that stuff because it feels natural to us, but it's actually not our natural state because owning our value should be our natural state.

Well, and it's so it's so difficult to truly know, like I was saying earlier, what your value is and how to define that, how how to put a number on that, or how to understand not just a number, but tie it to how you're actually showing up every single day. You know, I had um a situation uh come up for me years ago when I was with a company, and I was a one of the most tenured regionals in the company, and years and years and years went by, and we started bringing on, you know, the company was growing wildly. We started bringing on more and more regionals, and my boss came to me after three years and said, Oh, uh, we just want to let you know uh you need a salary correction. You're being far underpaid compared to everybody else. And and I'm only gonna give it to you if you um I'm gonna put you on a performance improvement plan to get your food cost percentage up, and I'm only gonna give you your salary correction if you if you achieve this goal. And I was so confused by that, and I immediately let my masculine energy step up and I said, fuck this, I'm gonna fight for this, I'm gonna go get this salary. And in hindsight, I should have said, fuck you, and walked away. But we don't talk about salary, right? I know it's we you and I were talking about the other day, you're not allowed to in some companies. It's so taboo. So, how what tips and and tricks can you offer women to I guess help them not get a position like I got into? I mean, how do you have those conversations? How do you know what that number should be? Uh, you know, I had a I had a gentleman reach out to me the other day and said, I'd send him a candidate uh for a position. He said, Do you have any idea what she was making before so I can make an offer? And I had an idea and I said, No, I have no idea. I'm not, I wasn't gonna tell him because I wanted to do his research and look at his business model of what made sense. I didn't want him to base it off of her former salary.

Yeah, well, okay, so first of all, I'm in California. In California, you're not allowed to ask what purse somebody made. And I had um a client who came for a breakthrough session two weeks ago, and she was a former executive. And she said, when I got into and the companies we all know, so I'm just gonna leave it out, but she was um director of finance in this one particular company. She goes, When I got that job, when I was interviewing for that job, they kept in that state, they were allowed to ask. And she said, uh, here's what she said, and here's good practice, but I'll get into the nuggets of it in a second. But here's how it looks. She said, uh, I don't believe what I was making at my former role is relevant because I am now focusing on what you're telling me you want me to do here with the skill set I have and the results you want here. Uh maybe the first sentence was a little nuanced differently, but it made complete sense, right? So why are we dragging what I used to make uh forward? And so uh she was actually very confident in her abilities. Now I would say she she was drifting too far into the masculine because here's the answer. When we show up and when we don't have what I call baggage, and baggage is anything you have, look in your life where you're not getting results. Okay, wherever in your life you're not getting results, and your response to something is greater than the actual issue at hand that's causing it. So you get mad when somebody says boo to you, or and you just go down their throat where it's not a situation that warranted that kind of a response. That's baggage, and you're not seeing results in that part of your life. So when baggage shows up, instead of getting all masculine and saying, I'm coming at you for you, the thing is we have to back up and stop. And gosh, it goes even further back than that. Let me go back further. Here's what I'm finding is women professionals, as women, period, but really we'll focus on professions. Um, we're numb. We haven't owned our femaleness in so long, if ever, because it's never been okay. It's either been that it's too much of the sexual, don't be a bitch, um, be quiet, like some version of that. I know that for myself, right? And it feels so awkward when we start. So the easiest place to start, little by little, and you're gonna be like, how does this tie into my the apology text? But it's about what brings me pleasure, what makes me happy, what desires do I have at the end of the day? Maybe it's to eat that whole box of chocolate and not feel bad. Maybe it's just one of it and and say, you know what, good for you for eating that one and really enjoying it. Maybe it's having an honest conversation with someone that that has been, you know, sitting with you, but whatever it is, starting from that place of owning our body, right? And the breath, the breath work. I do a lot of breath work with clients when we start breakthrough sessions or any coaching, because when we're not physically in our body, how can we have any kind of negotiation conversation with someone? We get triggered, we respond, or we shut down, which is another response to trigger, right? So those are the places to start by saying, Hey, I'm a woman, why don't I feel like one? Well, because we're so busy, there's kids, there's outside pressure, there's aging parents, which I used to have to deal with. There's this work, there's this job where if I don't show up and measure up by whose standards? Right? That's really the question. Then I'm not gonna get promoted and get seen and hurt. I mean, I used to do that. My practice was in DC, and every morning, I kid you not, I would get up and straighten my hair, pull it back in a bun because curly haired women, I mean, I didn't want to be too feminine, and I would wear a pantsuit and I would strap down my chest because I wanted to be a man, and that is so nuts, right? Wow. What I didn't understand was if I had owned my feminineness, and that did not mean no, nobody ever was inappropriate to me in my legal career. I'm just gonna say that. I'm sure it happens, I've heard plenty of it. It just didn't happen to me, and I'm grateful for that. I created that, right? I was like, I'm a man. If I just stopped and realized, oh wow, like there's a benefit to being a woman in this industry. People would tell me that all day long. They'd go, Katie, we don't know very many women lawyers or investment management lawyers, and I would just shrug it off. They were telling me what was unique and special about me. So perhaps the first place to start owning your value, aside from taking my courses, which is A to Z plug for that, but truly that because I created these because there was nothing there for me, and I just needed to figure this out for myself. But just sit back and say, what are people saying are your greatest assets? What are those traits and those skills you have? What are the compliments you get that you push back on really, really hard because oh, it's stupid. They're saying um, I'm I'm I'm really good at dressing myself. What what a lob. I mean, what a shitty thing to say, right? I used to get those kind of responses was because I was well put together. I showed up well, I showed up with grace and elegance. Oh my gosh, I used to get so offended. I'm like, what do you mean I'm elegant? That's so shitty. I'm a lawyer, right? And it was just so wrong. So start there. If you don't internalize being a competent woman, then why would you expect somebody to come to you and go, I'm gonna adjust your salary? Uh, and then some, right? If you show up with that, with that vibe, then people can't help but notice you. And as long as you show up and own it without throwing it at people, and I know there's gonna be plenty of listeners, women who are gonna get mad at me and go, oh, so now you're telling us to shut up and not come across as a bitch. That's not my fault. That's how it's interpreted. Okay, however, does it feel good inside? It never feels good for me to come across as a bitch, like it just always sat really poorly with me to show up that way, and it sucked the energy out of me. That's the other thing I work on with clients. Like, where's your energy going? Yeah, and it never feels good. So start there, um, and start tweaking and course correcting and pay pay attention, self-awareness to whether you're showing up and really shining, or whether you're just um relegating yourself to second class. Yeah, no one has to do that to us. We do that to ourselves.

I think it's so um everything you're saying is just landing so beautifully with me. And because it's just you're I feel like you're talking right at me right now, but it's been very challenging for me to understand how to define my worth and my value. And and you talked earlier about desires, and I told you last week I've been writing a book of a list of desires, I call it my book of desires, um, trying to figure out what makes me happy and what fulfills me and what doesn't. And so I I want to get into some kind of tangible things because I'm making this huge list. I think I'm on 31 things right now, and it's everything from nutrition to sex to uh you know where I want to spend time and energy to where I want to be um focusing on personal development, you know, professional development, what have you. A lot of those times we think we know what we want and then we we test it out a little bit, and it's not what we want. And and I think, yes, I know you want to lean into that one a little bit.

But isn't that great? You tested it out. Yeah, now you have agency, you are empowered and you have control. Excuse me, that one didn't work for me. Check now, I know, and the more we chip away at that, the more we uncover what really works for us, right? And we bring that same level of clarity and congruency to the negotiation table to work to serving clients well, right? Excuse me. So when you step up into the client service role, people can sense it. It's actually communication, in my opinion, as I teach it, is very little less than five percent verbal. It's so much more is non-verbal. It's our vibe, it's how we show up, it's how we own our stance and our gait and what we wear on this billboard, right? Yeah, um, to carry the message. And that's what people sense, it's not what we say. So every time you mark something off that list, then you're building that nonverbal brand up. And I mean, look at how many times in your life, in the hospitality industry, especially, and I've been on the I'm I'm not in the hospital industry, but I've sure have been a client. And not too long ago, I was at a spa at a big um, well, living in San Diego, there's lots of lots of great locations, but it was a big hotel resort spa. And my husband sent me there for the day from my birthday, and a lot of things worked well and a lot of things didn't. And I, because I know them over there, I sent them an email and I told them, and they responded with such gratitude. And responded with such warmth and thank you for it. And the woman said this, the um general manager said this. She said, It is so hard to hear this feedback. However, I'm so grateful for it, right? And that was on paper, right? However, I could just envision her vibe. Like she was like confident, and and she responded within like three minutes. I was shocked. I wrote that thing and I just walked away. I was doing something else, and I look, I'm like, what is that? Did she already respond? She'd read it, digested it, farmed it out to the different areas to fix it. No that she said it, and then she said, I need you to come back for a day on me so you can see that we fixed this because I can't have that out there. So, is that a good example? It was for me because she didn't have to say any of that. I don't send those emails very often because it takes my time. But when I do, I'm not asking for anything back, I'm sitting truly in my feminine energy going, hey, I really care about this location, and I've been coming for years, and something just something slipped really bad. And I'm because I build brands, I'm really good at noticing these things. And to have someone be that open and that willing, and I could tell she was a very confident person. So, would I hire her? Absolutely, I would. Does she own her value 100%? I don't know, but I'd want to spend time with her and find out, right? Totally.

So I want to ask two things that really come up a lot in the industry. Um, and again, the things that I'd run into. First one is I had a boss long time ago that, and this just tends to happen in the independent space. We help a lot of clients put these structures in place. They don't have um budgets set up for raises every year, nor do they have set time schedules on when those raises happen. And so typically they just my boss had said to me years ago, if you want a raise, you're just gonna have to come and ask me for it. And I and so guess what? I never did because I was never prepared on how much to ask for or when the right timing was, or whatever. And again, I was very uh intimidated. So I think that's one example of how do you go ask for a raise, maybe when there isn't a structured time in place. And the other one is when somebody presents you an offer letter, how do you negotiate and counter in that moment? Do you do it right then? Do you take it home? What's some tips and tricks and advice you have for people?

Let's go one at a time. Um, it's often that there's no, well, it depends on the industry. So we'll just take your industry. There's many industries that do have set raises, but I I mean, I remember when my last legal job, our general counsel would put post-it notes on our computer screen in our individual offer offices with our pay increase. Talk about crazy, right? So even that model doesn't work well. But back to your question, I know it's completely nuts right in the industry. We could always be like, oh my god, nobody going to each other's office. Because again, it's right there, it's so long, right? Wow. For industries that don't have that, here's how it works. What have you accomplished? What is your internal goal? That's why a coach is so important, right? Who and I do is so important in this because it's about uh someone who's got your back who's saying, Hey, what's your goal? What's your what accomplishments do you want to have? So we can build out a timeline and you can stay on track, right? So you should be looking at this at least twice a year and saying, What have I achieved and where am I going? Put numbers to it. Okay. So most often you're going and asking a man for a salary increase. Okay. Men are left-brained linear analytical thinkers by nature. They're single focused. Back in the day, they were the ones hunting that one deer to feed their family. So they have to be single focused. That's how men are wired. This is research based on Alison Armstrong's work. If you want to know, I always give attribution. Um, women, though, are diffused awareness. So we're we were out there with the babies on our back in the meadows gathering the berries together. So we're able to see a broader landscape, which actually makes this better for leadership. Anyway, so you're going and asking a man for a salary increase. You must justify it with data with numbers because he's single-focused and numbers don't lie, right? So, what have you done in the past X number of months, six months? What did you help achieve? And please, none of this stuff that we women do that's part of the apology tax problem. Oh, I didn't do it alone. I'm part of the team, and aren't we a great team? We all get that. We all want to be collaborative. Women generally don't have that problem if we stay in our feminine. Feminine is made for collaboration. Okay. So what'd you do? How much was a percentage gain? And then how many sentences? This is part of the audit that I give, the uh the assessment, the apology tax assessment that I give. How many sentences did you have before you went into that house? Hey, in the past six months, uh, I put together this deal, this deal brought in this much money, uh, and I would like uh an increase of twenty thousand dollars. He shuts his mouth and he sits there. Here's what women do. Is this a good time to talk about my race? And you know, I hate saying it this way, but I love being a woman and I love our fellow women. So it's true, it's true. I think this is true. I do this too if I'm not careful, right? So I'll tell you why in a minute. Um, can I come in? And so we walk in. Well, you know, I just I was had to really think about whether I should come and say that. I know you're super busy, and I know there's a lot going on, and I love being on this team, and so we all work together, and and I'm not trying to take credit for somebody else's work, and it goes on and on. And the man is going, what the fuck do you want? I'm busy because we're focused, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So get in there, two sentences, Max, say it. Silence, let the notes land, right? Um, Chris Voss, I don't know if you guys have ever read the book. Um we talk about him a lot, yeah. Yeah, but Chris Voss is a hostage negotiator, ex-hostage negotiator. He's a man, he's truly masculine, and he teaches this stuff, he mansplains it, right? Uh, as a woman, a lot of this stuff didn't land on me, Chris Voss's method. And I went back to my own method because I'm a really good negotiator. I was like, hmm. So, but the pause is critical for all of us. So sit and think. And here's an example to this. I have a girlfriend, she used to be CEO of a major engineering company. Now, engineers are mostly men. She was a female CEO, and she would say to me exactly how this played out. She she added to my research. She would say, Catsy, at least once a week, one of my male engineers comes in off-cycle because she had two and two um review cycles. Off-cycle, he brings all his data, he brings all the projects he's worked on, how much money it's made the company, and he flat out asks me for a raise within the first five, six minutes. And she says, I sit there and I look at the numbers and I go, 90% of the time, I'm like, yeah, he's right, you should get an adjustment. He said, After all, she said, after a while though, I would turn to them and go, Don't come back, because I've given you enough of a bump. The kicker to this point. She said, Not once does one of my women engineers come into my office and ask for a salary increase. And she goes, It pains my heart as a woman, but I'm the CEO, I'm not gonna go out and rally the mob, right? Yeah, that's the first question.

The second question was refresh my memory. So you so you've got an offer letter in front of you, you're excited about the opportunity. Do you um how do you channel that excitement and counter-negotiate? When do you know uh if you should counter-negotiate? Because I will say there have been times where, and this is another thing in the industry that we need to fix, that negotiating or countering is taboo because some people take it personally and feel like, oh, my offer's not good enough for you.

Oh my goodness, that's just to cut you off right there. If you were sitting there on the other side of that and taking it personally, then you got some serious baggage we got to work through because this is all business, right? And these are all numbers. And I guarantee you put yourself in the other person's shoes. How is it personal to you? You're running a business, and I can appreciate we get involved when we're good managers and we want to do the right thing, however, you can't. Go that far into it because this is work. Now, I always I'm the first one to say, bring your whole self to work, you know, blah blah blah, emotions, whatnot. However, in this instance, that doesn't make sense. What do you do when you're sitting on the other side of that? Do not let that scare you. Here's the thing: do you want to work for someone who's going to take something like that personally? You're going to be fighting that uphill battle every day you report to that person. But to answer your first question, you don't respond right away, in my opinion. Everything has a pause after it. Thank you for the offer. I'm honored. I'd like to sit with this. And when do you need to know by? Right? Which it we're not playing games here, right? This is where authenticity and genuineness mean so much. So don't be like, I can't wait to say yes, but I'm supposed to make them feel like I'm not desperate and I don't want it. Don't do that. Please don't do that. Man or woman, we can always signal, get the signal, and then we've got you pegged for someone that plays games. And frankly, I pull the offer table off the offer off the table. I need some time to digest this and look at this and review this against my goals and my career and what we talked about and the work I'd be doing here. When do you need to hear back from? Then you go home and you do your research, right? You should have already done your research before you got to that point. Yeah. And then everything is open to negotiation. Why? Because how I define negotiation is sitting side by side next to someone to reach a mutually beneficial agreement. Okay, note that. That's one of the big things I teach in the Apology Tax workshop because the distinction is lost on us, especially lawyers. We're like, well, we gotta, it's adversarial. No, it's not. If I'm trying to reach a mutually beneficial result with you, Mr. Employer, to have me in the role, have someone in the role to get the highest best results for the company, for the client base. Yeah, then I need some time to digest this, and then I'll come back and go, Well, again, we're not. Oh, yes, again, I have five minutes of your time to talk about this. I've really thought long and hard about this, and I can't wait to work for you. However, no, don't do that. Just be neutral. And people are like, How do I get to neutral? Well, it's a conversation. Like, we got to get our central nervous system in line, our limbic system, all of that, so we're not in fight or flight mode, right? That this is all part of this, believe it or not. The whole person has to show up and go, Thank you for this offer. Uh, I need five minutes to talk to you about it. Or, you know, ask for more time. I need 15 minutes and plan to take five, and then you give the guy 10 minutes of his time back and he loves you for it, right? You just walk back in and go, uh I appreciate this, and here's what I'd like to counter with. Yeah, I love it. And then if he says why, I mean, I guess you could say you pulled numbers, but it you this is a slippery slope. At what point are you justifying your value? Versus you asked me to do this job, I'm qualified because of X, Y, and Z. Here's the number of people you want me to manage. Uh, for me, this is the number.

Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love the pause. The pause gives you the opportunity to take the deep breath, which helps your central nervous system calm down. I love saying, when do you need this buy? Because that immediately gives you permission to get up and walk away and go do that research and have a calm, clear head as we move forward. Katy, I so much value here. I'm so excited. You teach this stuff uh all the time. Let's talk about the workshop that you've got coming up and how do people get in contact with you?

Yeah, thank you for asking. I just have to lob one last thing in there. It's just like dating or anything else, as Ridge always says to us, right? If we're desperate, you just gotta be able to say, I'm gonna walk away. And I know that the universe has my back and the right deal will show up, the right spouse will show up, the right boyfriend, the right date, everything will show up, right? You have to have that air to you, and it's not from any other place except of certainty. Okay, so remember that. Yeah. So the Apology Tax Workshop, uh, I like to run them live for now. Uh, I the next live one is August 29th here in San Diego, uh, limited to 10 women, almost exclusively lawyers, however, women professionals at a senior level who know they're leaking their power in their heart of hearts, know they're leaving 500,000 on the table. We're gonna cover it from A to Z, the relationship aspect of it, the negotiation aspect of it, like literally, what should you say on Monday morning? How should you frame it? I'm gonna give you all the assessment on this, and I'm gonna run it real time through all of you guys, and then literally have a play-by-play on this for you. And it's all day, the 29th. And um it there's no splash page, there's no registration link. I like to talk to the women one by one to see if they're a good fit for this because I know it's a whole day of their life and people are busy. So if you're interested, reach out. It's Katy K-A-T-Y at Purist P-U-R-I-S, like Sam, consulting, Katy at PuristConsulting.com, and we'll have a conversation. I'll give you a 60-minute coaching session to see if it's a good fit. And if it is, then we'll see if you I'll offer you to join us. And if it's not, then you've got some coaching tips and you can have a self-diagnosis on where you should be focused instead.

Love it. Katsi, thank you so much for taking the time. Um, such such important lessons here for for me as I continue on this journey as an entrepreneur and for everybody else that's listening to this. So really appreciate it. And um, I will see you very soon in uh one of Rich's coaching sessions. So can't wait. Thank you, Justin.