Speaker 1: 0:08

Welcome to the Restaurant Leadership Podcast, the show where restaurant leaders learn tools, tactics and habits from the world's greatest operators. I'm your host, kristen Marvin, with Solutions by Kristen. I've spent the last two decades in the restaurant industry and now partner with restaurant owners to develop their leaders and scale their businesses through powerful one-on-one coaching, group coaching and leadership workshops. This show is complete with episodes around coaching, leadership development and interviews with powerful industry leaders. You can now engage with me on the show and share topics you'd like to hear about, leadership lessons you want to learn and any feedback you have. Simply click the link at the top of the show notes and I will give you a shout out on a future episode. Thanks so much for listening and I look forward to connecting.

Speaker 1: 1:14

Running an independent restaurant is no joke. You're doing it all Managing your team, maintaining quality, keeping things safe, and the back of the house can sometimes feel like organized chaos. That's where Restaurant Technology steps in. They've created a system called Total Oil Management that helps take one big job off your plate managing cooking oil. No more lugging jugs of oil or dealing with dangerous spills. Their system does four things for you Delivers fresh oil automatically removes used oil safely. No mess, no stress, helps your team stay safe and your food consistent, and even turns your used oil into biofuel, which is pretty cool. Thousands of independents across the country are already using it to cut costs, save time and make their kitchens run smoother.

Speaker 1: 2:09

If you're curious about this and want to learn more about how it could work in your space, visit gorti-inccom slash restaurant leadership podcast. Again, that's gorti-inccom slash restaurant leadership podcast. All right, hi everybody, we are going to get started. For those of you that are here at the National Restaurant Show standing in line at Starbucks, we're going to give you a little bit of content to listen to today while you're waiting in line. This is the Restaurant Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, kristen Marvin, and I am joined today by Neiman Popoff from Rogan Art European Bakery and Cafe. Welcome, neiman.

Speaker 2: 2:56

It's great to be here.

Speaker 1: 2:57

So happy to have you today, thank you. We have met briefly on LinkedIn and had a couple of conversations over the phone, and now we're here in person, which is just magical, so really appreciate your time.

Speaker 2: 3:06

Loving it.

Speaker 1: 3:07

Tell us a little bit about Rogan Art and give people kind of an understanding that are here of what it's all about, and then we'll kind of dive into the story a little bit about where the brand came from.

Speaker 2: 3:17

It is a European bakery, beach-run cafe headquartered in Maryland, and we have 10 locations. It is focusing on freshly crafted pastries from scratch, and everything that we do is from scratch, made in small batches throughout the day, so that we guarantee maximum freshness and great taste. And basically, the mission is not only to delight the customers, but also to create an experience that comes to life for anybody who walks in, and also to be a part of the community, to provide content to the community and for the local people to have where to meet and hang out and enjoy great food. So it's about actually discovering life.

Speaker 1: 3:57

I love that discovering life that's beautiful. So you have a very interesting background that's not necessarily rooted in food and beverage. How did this concept come to be for you?

Speaker 2: 4:08

The trouble with trouble is that it starts as fun. I was a corporate guy that was looking for a hobby. Everybody thinks restaurants are easy when you're not in the industry and then you start it, but then you simultaneously fall in love with it. It's a strange relationship of love and hate. And then I ended up making it my full-time thing I love it.

Speaker 1: 4:32

And when was that? What year was that? That started in 2016, okay, and did you when you opened your first one? Were there some challenges that you were? Did you ever think like I'm maybe I'm going to walk away from this? Or you just knew like this is what I want to do for the rest of my life? For?

Speaker 2: 4:50

about, I think, good, three years every. There was not even a day that passed by that I didn't think, okay, I'm walking away, I really didn't need this. Wow, this is, this is not for me. Yeah, and that was unfortunate. I learned or fortunately I learned through a lot of mistakes. So when I say I have experience in the industry, the experience came from me walking through the wall headfirst. So even the first location that we opened, the lease that we signed was bad. The setup was bad, so many mistakes. So we ended up actually walking out of that lease after three years Wow. And then opened another location mistake. So we ended up actually walking out of that lease after three years, wow. And then open another location. And then it took good, let's say all together, from the first location four years until we opened the second one. And opening the second one, the complexity of running two versus running one was, to my surprise, times five, not not times two.

Speaker 2: 5:44

And this is when, actually, you know, the true learning started happening. You know how do you actually build a restaurant business? And I was doing all of that from my. I was financing the entire expansion myself and still am. We do not have any equity or capital partners in the business. And right now it's easier and it's more fun once you scale to a point that you can put together a team that can actually help you on that journey, and then it becomes more about the team than about the owner. And the other day I was talking to somebody and they asked me so what do you actually do in your own business? And a lot of owners say, hey, I'm the visionary, I am Thanks.

Speaker 1: 6:38

A round of applause for the visionaries out there.

Speaker 2: 6:41

But, you know, I think every owner is actually the soul of the business, and my job right now is more taking care of the people who run the business. I'm still involved day to day. However, most of my engagement is market-facing activities.

Speaker 1: 7:03

When you were going through those first three years and the challenges were just so present for you every single day, what kept you going?

Speaker 2: 7:12

Perseverance, and I think it's part of the character, that desire that you have to find a way to make it work and just not willing to give up, and the constant idea there is thousands and thousands of people who made it work.

Speaker 2: 7:29

I have to make it work. And this is also when the growth and learning process started. Being in the corporate world and actually being quite high up in the corporate world makes you a little bit arrogant in terms of that. You think you know something, and then becoming an entrepreneur is a very humbling experience is when you actually it makes you a little bit arrogant in terms of that. You think you know something, and then becoming an entrepreneur is a very humbling experience is when you actually realize how little do you know, and it is almost like equivalent to relearning how to walk, but at the same time, a rewarding experience, that rush of joy when you did something well or things started picking up. It is just an incredible feeling, and it might not be for everybody, but for people who enjoy adventure and for people who are really driven, who are eager to grow, who work on themselves, it's the right move.

Speaker 1: 8:23

How did you develop that perseverance?

Speaker 2: 8:28

I don't know if I did anything in particular to develop it. I sort of always had it in me. I think that that mindset that you grow up with and the mindset, the narrative that you create for your own self in your head, is the key element, and that is like the continuous growth is what you do every day to grow yourself. Growth is what you do every day to grow yourself. That's that a little bit Kaizen mentality, because I was always sort of competing with myself from yesterday. Okay, and if I can be better than myself, I never lost a lot of time comparing myself to others or envying others or wanting to be like others. I just wanted to be a better version of myself every day. And I'm actually still working on that every day and I think that learning and that personal growth never stops.

Speaker 1: 9:21

Hi everybody. We're taking a quick break to offer you an exciting opportunity. If you're a restaurant owner or manager looking to enhance your leadership skills, I invite you to join my 12-day leadership challenge. In just 12 days, you'll receive a guided packet with actionable strategies to transform your leadership in less than five minutes a day. Join the challenge and the community and grab your copy at kristinmarvincom. Slash 12 days. Now let's get back to the show. Have you taken that mindset and translated it to the business as well, in terms of thinking on how we can be better every single day, every single shift? Absolutely. How is that showing up in your culture today?

Speaker 2: 10:08

It is showing up with a high level of engagement, and the idea is to create a team and to have team members who are really interested in growing themselves, because this is what I think a person that does not work on their own growth, they're not going to grow anybody else's business. So you try to surround yourself with good people who have similar mentality and a similar personality. The old famous, you know higher personality. Train the skill and then take good care of your people.

Speaker 1: 10:42

How are you identifying those personalities and that growth mindset during the interview process at all of your locations?

Speaker 2: 10:49

I think this is actually the toughest part interview process at all of your locations. I think this is actually the toughest part. We've tried with different types of testing, we've tried with several levels of interviews. It's still. I can't say that I think that I have the recipe of how to get the right candidate every time. We still make a mistake almost daily, daily in now, in the meantime, in in 10 stores.

Speaker 1: 11:15

Uh, we truly do not have a high turnover of of people, but still, you know, mistakes are always going to happen did you know when you started robin art that you wanted to open a certain number of locations, or are you kind of just waiting to see what happens with the business?

Speaker 2: 11:33

Well, I always had a vision, and the vision is to actually create a national brand, and the main motivation is not in the money, it's just again being the best version of yourself and growing and focusing on being great and awesome at what you do. I think success, and everything that comes with success, is a consequence and you cannot work on it. You can work on your own personal growth and growth of the business and learning from your mistakes, and then you scale as much as you want to scale. I'm not putting a cap or a bottom to ambition. I'm a firm believer. You cap or a bottom to a bishop. You know, I'm a firm believer. You either have it or you don't, and as long as you have it, you just keep on going.

Speaker 1: 12:18

I love that. I love that. How are you developing yourself as a leader today?

Speaker 2: 12:29

A lot of reading, a lot of learning from other people. I. I think being surrounded by great people, from, uh, from from who you can learn, is very important. I try to be in interesting room, not necessarily influential rooms, but interesting rooms where you meet, uh, great people who are inspired and who are ambitious and who are growing learning. That's pretty much it. And I read a lot of books. I think I go through five, six, seven books every day because I'm genuinely interested. I'm trying to be the best version of myself, and that best version of myself should actually pull the entire, all the team members, to be the best version of myself, and that best version of myself should actually pull the entire, all the team members, to be the best versions of themselves, which then pull the business.

Speaker 1: 13:18

What are you reading right now that you love?

Speaker 2: 13:22

Right now I'm actually reading several books, so I go through books in phases. Right now, I'm actually reading Fyodor Dostoe. Right now, I'm actually reading Fyodor Dostoevsky. I'm actually reading Brothers Karamazov, which is just wild and insane. That was like a mental break from all the, let's say, CEO books. The most recent one that I actually read was from Bob Iger about the Disney. I can't remember. I think I don't know what it is um. And the next book that I'm going to read is from the owner.

Speaker 2: 14:02

I'm horrible with names yes okay, uh, it's the container store owner, okay, who wrote a book. It's about, you know, it's about conscious growth of the company, where he kept it in family, and that container store was voted best employer in the US for many, many years in a row and the guy is an inspiring leader. Despite that, I forgot his name.

Speaker 1: 14:26

That's okay.

Speaker 2: 14:28

But it is, and I can't wait to read his book.

Speaker 1: 14:31

I love it. What does success look like for you as you grow? Rogan art.

Speaker 2: 14:37

Success looks like happiness, you know, and I think it's it's balancing sort of three aspects of your life. You know it's it's it's being emotionally fulfilled and and everything that comes emotionally and spiritually. Number two, being physically happy, being healthy and making sure that your body that carries you and your soul and whoever you are on the inside is healthy. And then also being professionally fulfilled and then also being professionally fulfilled. So balancing those three and being aware and mindful about the equilibrium of these three intelligences however you want to call it, that sort of reside within your body that are the same you but are a little bit different. Balancing them.

Speaker 1: 15:30

Do you have a recipe to balance those three?

Speaker 2: 15:32

no, I think that is that that is super individual. Yeah, you know, it just depends on so many uh things. So I define the character per person as a loose confederation focus on the word confederation of inclinations, habits and circumstances. Right, so think about what defines you and what defines that actual balance is actually the circumstances that you're in, your inclinations as mean as as in terms of your nature and, uh, your habits. That's why I think, like creating and working on on great habits is is one of the mandatory things for everybody.

Speaker 1: 16:15

Yeah. What are some of the great habits that you've been able to build that have helped you be successful?

Speaker 2: 16:20

Discipline, hard work, wisdom, kindness, and that's pretty much it. Kindness. When I say kindness, it's respectfulness and that's pretty much it. Kindness. When I say kindness, it's respectfulness, it's gratitude, it's just trying to be a good human being that is benevolent to the entire community and everything that he or she touches. Discipline, I think you know it, is the motivation, gets you started. Discipline gets you to that finish line. So I think that is when you have mornings where you don't feel like going to work or you're going to be having tough conversations, that despite that, you push yourself through it. In the end you are going to be satisfied and happy with yourself.

Speaker 1: 17:11

I love it when you were growing from one to 10, and you just opened number 10, right Are we?

Speaker 2: 17:16

this week. Actually, yeah, we just opened up the second store in Chicago this Saturday. It was a very soft opening. Learn it the hard way when you're small do not do. Do not do hard openings, you know you're in. It turns into a crisis management more than a celebratory event.

Speaker 1: 17:34

Yeah, tell everybody that's standing in line where the two locations in Chicago is, so they can go check it out.

Speaker 2: 17:40

The two locations in Chicago. One is in Lincoln Park on Deversy and the other one is on Halstead in Boys Town.

Speaker 1: 17:46

Okay, love it. When you were planning this expansion from one to 10, what was your strategy in terms of the leadership team that you wanted to surround yourself with?

Speaker 2: 17:57

When you're small, it is tougher because everybody's looking for good people, smaller companies. It's more like recognizing a hidden talent or giving an opportunity to somebody who might just have it in them. What was the most crucial thing? I think it is trying to look for the right personality, trying to look for the right team.

Speaker 1: 18:30

What does that look like for you?

Speaker 2: 18:33

For me that looks like defining what type of a person would I like to have as a team member and then trying to on interviews to figure out. Is that the person that I'm actually looking for? And just asking from the behaviors and experiences from the past, because I think you know, the behaviors from the past will impact the behaviors in the future. So, basically, how somebody has handled the past is a good indicator how they will behave and what they will do in the future. So, asking about things you know, like when is the last time when they have set a goal and that they have achieved it and what did they do to achieve it Right. Asking things, okay, last time when they have set a goal and that they have achieved it, and what did they do to achieve it right.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Um, asking things, okay, give me an example when you messed up and how you handle it. You know, with that a little bit of I don't want to say hidden agenda, but with the idea that that you want to figure out how does somebody own their responsibility? How is somebody going to own that accountability in the business? Because I think accountability is one of the most important parts of the structure in any business, because you usually get what you tolerate.

Speaker 1: 19:42

Yeah, do you feel like you have a strong sense of understanding and knowing and identifying when somebody is actually being honest and open about those challenges, or when they haven't, when they've, when they've set a goal for themselves but they haven't met the goal, or how they've overcome some challenges in their life?

Speaker 2: 19:57

You know, I've missed it so many times that I don't know if I can brag.

Speaker 2: 20:02

I keep on trying, but it's always a little bit of a hit and miss.

Speaker 2: 20:07

It's hard to read people, but it's also hard for anybody to hide their true personality and work ethic and everything for an extended period of time. I think within three months you will figure out who is what type of profile and I think you know the moment that you realize, the moment that one of the big mistakes that I was making is I was getting too upset with some people around me, with my expectations, and one of the biggest reliefs in my life came when I made a simple decision that I will either accept that person the way it is or I will do something about it. And every time I got upset and still, if I get upset at work, it is you know I'm either going to do something about it or I'm going to accept it. If I'm going to accept it, I'm truly am going to accept it and work with it. And once you have that mental clarity, I think that that sort of helps guiding you in your decision-making process when it comes to team selection.

Speaker 1: 21:13

Is there something recently that you've accepted that has made a positive impact in the business?

Speaker 2: 21:22

Yes, I have accepted some of the team members for what they actually are, and for some of the team members I've decided to take some action against it. And these are, let's say, some of the leadership roles in the business.

Speaker 1: 21:41

What were some of those key leadership positions that you knew that you needed to get from, let's say, one to five locations?

Speaker 2: 21:50

It is basically, I think, the organizational structure and scaling is super important. It's mapping out how the future looks like and how you're going to develop all of those positions. Because it's a small restaurant, you actually do not have the resources to, you know, identify the process, plug in and have the owner of every process, but you have to have people who wear many hats, but then you sort of create a map forward. What do you do? You know, once business, or actually the operation, scales to such a point that you have to get on another person and what the priorities are. So, for example, for us it was obviously the store operations department. You know, from one person running multiple stores for that person to get some functional support in terms of, let's say, quality, in terms of service, in terms of general services, because, you know, last year I had a feeling that that there was that we were spending so much time and just fixing and troubleshooting items like maintenance, like roof is leaking or, you know, like we have to step up the pest control. There is always something physical to be done in the, in the store. Yeah, right, so this was the first department that we started staffing with, with, let's say, middle management. That was the, the operations, and probably the the.

Speaker 2: 23:21

The next one is going to be marketing Cause I think you know marketing is such an important part of the part of the business because it's the perception that brings in the customers. When I opened the first door, panera was almost like across the street and Panera is an amazing company and everything. But I thought we are small artisan. We have a similar footprint. It was a smaller Panera. We have a similar footprint.

Speaker 2: 23:53

We should be outperforming them. People are going to see Panera and they're going to see something new and this is going to be a nicer ambience. It's going to be a pretty similar portfolio to what they have, but this is just going to be a little bit better. It didn't happen. Panera was times three or times four of the sales that we had. Then you realize what the power of the brand actually means, because all the restaurants and all the food places are fighting for that share of stomach, right, and the share of stomach comes from the top of mind and I think, once you pass a certain point, there has to be a very strong focus on marketing.

Speaker 1: 24:30

So you started in Maryland and then Virginia.

Speaker 2: 24:35

Yes, that's the DMV area. That's like North Virginia, dc and Maryland, it's pretty much all one area.

Speaker 1: 24:42

And then, what made you decide to try out Chicago as the next city?

Speaker 2: 24:49

The idea was okay. If you really want to scale, can you build a parallel concept in a different region and make it actually work? Number two Chicago is a foodie place and it's oversaturated with competition and you have to be really good at what you're doing in order to make it. Here in Chicago and this was a great challenge for the organization Are we really ready and what challenges we are going to encounter when expanding? And I think it's.

Speaker 2: 25:22

I thought it was better to do it early on, because if you scale enough and you make a blunder when you're already known, that hurts much more than making a blunder when you're small and unknown, because you're forgiven much easier. You know, I think a customer will forgive a brand that is just new, or like mom and pop shop that just opened. They're like oh yeah, they're still working their way up. You see a big company. You see a Starbucks open. They won. You want it to be like on top of every process. They got to get it flawlessly. But small stores they're like hey, like on top of every process, they got to get it flawlessly, yeah, but small stores they're like, hey, that's part of the charm. That's the concept. That's a Japanese concept. It's called wabi-sabi. It's learning to enjoy the imperfections small imperfections, right.

Speaker 2: 26:09

Because if you wait for something to be perfect, you know, and if you're just going to enjoy perfection, you're never actually going to enjoy life yeah you know and I'm trying to apply that concept you know you open a story, you're going to get it wrong sometimes, but actually the beauty becomes that imperfection that's risky.

Speaker 1: 26:26

To go into a market that's so far away, that's so saturated, that's risky, my friend extremely how have you developed the skill of managing risk in your career?

Speaker 2: 26:41

Cool. I don't know if I'm managing the risk or the risk is managing me, but it's a weird relationship between me and risk. I view it as adventure and I was ready to make mistakes. I tried to apply all the knowledge and experience to minimize those mistakes and I tried to learn from all the mistakes that I've done in the past and I am very satisfied with how we launched it in Chicago.

Speaker 1: 27:17

Yeah, how did the first location do?

Speaker 2: 27:21

I think it's actually doing pretty well. That's awesome.

Speaker 1: 27:24

Was your team on board like your leadership team on board with opening in Chicago, or did you get some pushback?

Speaker 2: 27:30

They all thought that I was nuts yeah, opening in Chicago. Thought I was nuts, yeah, opening in Chicago. But you know, after, everybody who comes and visits Chicago falls in love. Oh it's.

Speaker 1: 27:42

And then it became a race.

Speaker 2: 27:43

Who is going to be the next one coming to Chicago? Okay, Right. So I think team members also enjoyed and for the first month we had three team members from Maryland here in Chicago making sure to set it up right.

Speaker 1: 28:00

Awesome, awesome, that's great.

Speaker 2: 28:02

Still made a lot of mistakes, but that's the fun of it. Yeah, I think, if you realize that nobody's perfect, that the mistakes are going to be there, that you have to enjoy the process, that it's not about the destination, it's about about the destination. It's it's about you know that's. That's an eternal question. You know, a pursuit of happiness or the happiness of the pursuit. You have two different types of personalities. I enjoy the pursuit. I enjoy, I enjoy building something that is, that is an adventure. It is, you know, working in a fast paced, environmentpaced environment and creating something fun and memorable.

Speaker 1: 28:38

What does the next five years look like for you?

Speaker 2: 28:41

Well, right now, since we've scaled, this year we're going to open one more store in Maryland and the idea would be to complete and build all the systems that are still not in place, because even though there is 10 or 11 locations, I still consider ourselves to be a small company and there is still organizational things that we want to structure and significantly improve. And then the idea is to grow at a steady pace. It's hard to say how many stores, because when you're small, you basically follow more the opportunity and a lot of times the opportunity doesn't come in screaming, it comes in whispering. One of the things, how we were able to open so many stores is go for the second generation stores, which we coined the term, which were, let's say, roganert compatible. The Roganert compatible means we can convert it easily into our concept and that significantly makes the initial investment less expensive.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Okay, what kind of square footage like what are you looking for in terms of new spaces?

Speaker 2: 29:52

We're looking between 2,000 and 2,500. Okay, and we operate in every region. We have a central commissary because we make our own things, and that's a little bit of the difference, because most of the restaurants you buy items and then you prepare food. Here we have a central commissary that buys basic things like flour and yeast and then you craft and then you create art out of it. So I think that was one of the biggest challenges in Chicago is training the baking team and being able to replicate the quality that we have. That is one of the parts of the project that I'm most satisfied with.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Nice. So you're going to have a commissary in every new market. Get that set up before the first location opens.

Speaker 2: 30:46

That's the idea, okay.

Speaker 1: 30:48

That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 30:49

However, you know you do commissary in phases. So the first one is within the first store and it can probably cover three or four stores. Then you have to scale and then you have to determine the next size of the commissary. Are you going to be aiming to cover 15 stores or are you going to go big and ambitious and create a commissary that can cover 50 or 100 stores? Something tells me it sounds like you're going to go big and ambitious and create a commissary that can cover 50 or 100 stores.

Speaker 1: 31:17

Something tells me it sounds like you're going to go big and ambitious.

Speaker 2: 31:21

Not yet.

Speaker 1: 31:22

There was a twinkle in your eye when you leaned into that a little bit.

Speaker 2: 31:26

Yeah, I like ambitious, but one step at a time. I may not forget to live, because that's an important part. Yeah, you do all of this. All of this, what you do is you do to be happy and you know to be satisfied in life. When you make it your purpose of life, you sort of lose yourself a little bit.

Speaker 1: 31:49

I love it. What are you most excited about over the next five years?

Speaker 2: 31:55

I'm excited about in business. I'm excited about the growth that really you know when, when I think about it. Yeah, there's going to be, you know, new markets, there's going to be new stores, we're going to be expanding the team. I like that idea because I am also personally very involved. Still a small company, I'm spearheading most of that growth and advance myself. I just find enjoyment in it. I'll probably always be a part of it. I wouldn't like to be eventually the CEO of my company, but I would always like to be in that business development and expansion plans because that's for me, that's part of the happiness.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Love it. I love it. Neiman, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. Let's, for those new people in the Starbucks line here, let's again shout out where your locations are so they can go visit you.

Speaker 2: 32:57

Locations are in Lincoln Park, on Diversea, corner of Diversea and Broadway, and on Halstead in Boys Town Awesome.

Speaker 1: 33:01

So again, neiman Popoff with Rogan Art European Bakery and Cafe, cannot wait to come check out the location this afternoon and take a peek behind the curtain with you. Really excited about that, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 33:12

Awesome. Thank you for having me here.

Speaker 1: 33:13

All right, absolutely. Thanks for joining us. Again we're at the National Restaurant Association show in Chicago and we've got a couple more episodes coming up for you today. Thank you so much, everybody, for attending the show and for listening to us. For those of you listening at home, if you find this episode valuable, please share this episode and the podcast with anybody that you know in the industry that can benefit, and we'll talk to you soon.